I have my natal Sun in Libra, the sign of relationship, conjunct Chiron in Libra and have spent many years analyzing what makes us tick when it comes to relating to others.
Elsa P, over on ElsaElsa.com, brought the issue of co-dependency up again, Astrology, Courage and Co-dependence, and after thinking it over, I decided for me it’s more of a matter of connotation. The word co-dependency has very negative connotations for anyone who has been through one of Al-Anon’s programs designed to help those living with alcoholics and addicts. When we think co-dependent we see someone who has given all their power away. However, when we use the word dependable, we have a positive response. In astrological terms, I look to Saturn to describe how dependable a person is, and Neptune to determine how susceptible an individual is to becoming co-dependent.
My poor ole Libra Moon is conjunct Neptune and sextile Saturn, so I am both dependable and susceptible to being co-dependent. In my family my mother had all the hallmark behaviors of someone with co-dependency issues and I learned those from her. She was a Libra Sun/Pisces Moon and I am a Libra Sun/Libra Moon conjunct Neptune – very similar in nature. However, I have Uranus trine my Sun and Moon and that gives me an independent edge. It only took one smack upside the head to get my attention and make me deal with my co-dependent behaviors. That was a literal blow to the head . . .
Now I have been happily married for 16 years to a very independent Aries man whose Saturn is conjunct my Moon and my Saturn is trine his Moon. Yes, we depend on the other all the time and I see this as a very good thing. But we both feel we can make decisions without asking the other too. Well, I wouldn’t run out and buy a new sofa without consulting him . . . but we operate pretty independently on a day to day basis. We also have Neptune aspects in our synastry too. His Neptune is conjunct my Sun and my Neptune opposes his Sun, so there is a great deal of tolerance between us and a deep sense of connection. We don’t walk on eggshells around each other either! Something I remember doing in my co-dependent relationships.
So what I’m saying is it’s very possible to be inter-dependent and feel you can depend on someone without raising the specter of co-dependency. As always, we need to get our own selves squared away and learn how we deal with dependency issues before we can function well as part of a team. Neptune aspects in the natal chart can show us where we are inclined to give too much away, Saturn aspects ground us, and Uranus aspects can give us the courage to follow our own special path as a single person or part of a couple.
(yes, this is a topic from my synastry blog but what the heck, they’re both my blogs! =grin=)
This is the Four of Staves tarot card from the Goddess deck. It describes a shared vision which is what we strive for in relationship.
I’m glad you put this over here, this is where I have you bookmarked (I sometimes forget about the new blog, because I’m flaky that way).I have a Libra NN (my Dad is a Libra and my Mum is an Aries); and I am surely getting better at learning how to be comfortably dependent. I agree with you, it can be a good thing! I have strong signatures of independence in my chart (Sag ASC, Uranus MC opposed Sun, etc) but my Saturn is in my 7th/8th House–I recently accepted (more readily than I expected, actually) that I define myself through relationships. I guess this is natural for a 1st House Moon? I don’t know. My turnaround came when my SO said “Look, you want to be alone, go be alone.” He was meaning it in a mundane context (I wanted to go to the beach alone, or something like that) but it hit me like a ton of bricks: if my partner feels this frequently, it’s only a matter of time before it bleeds into the psychological and emotional bonds of our relationship…maybe it already has…So I made a concentrated effort to change things up and be ‘friendlier’ (for lack of a better word), and include him more in my psychological world.
Hi Christie! This is an important issue for me so appreciate the feedback.Finding our personal balance between meeting our needs for doing our own stuff and taking our partners into account is pretty key to maintaining a lasting relationship. Your Earth sign Sun & Moon must be arguing with your Sagittarius ASC & Gemini on the DES regularly. The Sag/Gem axis is a free wheeling, freedom loving one . . . as you well know!
Sounds your guy is a keeper all right!
Oh my God, that Sag/Gem thing…he has the flip of that, as you know…whoa. We’re the most free-wheeling, scared of change, independence loving, stubborn people you’d meet, LOL!
the discussion on the other blog had me thinking too…but what hit home for me is when you mention Neptune’s tendency to give away and surrender, even when it may not be beneficial for Neptune types to do so (mentally, physically, & spiritually).my first astro book was the Astrologer’s Handbook by Sakoian & Acker. it is almost in shreds now from constant use etc however, one of the first aspects that had me taking a good look at myself was the jupiter in pisces that i have natally (10H placidus or 11H campanus which is what i use). learning what to give and what not to give in relationship with others has been an ongoing struggle. right now i’m set to arrange a lunch with someone who i would normally not want to be involved with socially. however, i’m trying not to run from challenging relationships. rather i want to act responsibly towards myself and towards the other person since she is going through a hell of time right now (saturn return). my one fear is committing myself to something that i know i will come to resent later (classic passive aggression in codependent relationships or simple cowardice ~ i can’t decide), such as loans, regular get togethers, doing favours which she is famous for asking. yet knowing i tend to do this because i truly want to make everything right for the other person is a jerk to my system in a good way…i am only human and so is she. i have decided to primarily listen to what is being said (even if it has in the past sounded like a nagging whiny tone to me, i want to actually hear the content of her talk). however, i’ve decided to speak up when i feel it necessary (natal Saturn in Aquarius) and i am hoping to do this in a non-defensive way. since i know i cannot fix her situation (infamous Neptunian god delusion), the least i can do is be present when i see her, but not as a “pushover” which is a form i would normally assume for myself in the past.as i have been through similar emotional issues that she is currently having, i would like to put the Jupiter in Picses aspect to good use, but i also want to use the detachment of Saturn in Aquarius.praying i can do this with her by honoring the gifts of the two aspects mentioned above and by turning my passive aggression tendencies way, way down low
oops my apologies for the previous long post
my one fear is committing myself to something that i know i will come to resent later (classic passive aggression in codependent relationships or simple cowardice ~ i can’t decide), The fact you can recognize the behavior pattern says volumes, Vee. I truly believe that we are so much further ahead going into this type of situation with a game plan.yet knowing i tend to do this because i truly want to make everything right for the other person is a jerk to my system in a good way…This is the one that grabs me too. People with genuine difficulties reach me. The problem that I’ve had is drawing the line for myself and knowing before hand how much of my resources I am willing to share. Many times very needy sorts can drain a person with a complete lack of awareness of what they’re doing.as i have been through similar emotional issues that she is currently having, i would like to put the Jupiter in Pisces aspect to good use, but i also want to use the detachment of Saturn in Aquarius.Neptune is trine your Jupiter in Pisces (emphasis Pisces) but inconjunct your Moon in the 12th (Pisces/Neptune again). I can see why it’s easy for you want to help others as you truly feel their pain. Just be very sure you have your exit strategy in place and keep repeating it to yourself! =grin=
HI! I have Pisces rising and Neptune conjunct Saturn.I have the potential to be codependent, and tend, at times, to hide behind my care-giver tendencies, but a MARS/URANUS /SUN conjunction causes this to NOT LAST LONG! A very reliable and business oriented Moon in Capricorn means I do what it takes to keep the family business running too.. yes, hard work, but I’ve been married to my soul mate forever..we have taken turns being the supporter and supportee.. We BOTH support one another’s efforts in all areas.. we DO get very involved in each other’s decision making! But–we allow for independence too–and even learn something form our differences! Friends who have been through therapy (and are still miserable!) tell me that working together and doing for one another is “co dependent!” How I hate that word.I might add I have been married to my soul mate for over 30 years and some of these well meaning friends are on their 3rd spouses..PARTNERSHIP is ABOUT a certain INTERPLAY, I’m there for you, you’re there for me, right?Of course, we enjoy the differences, and support one anothers crazy schemes, hobbies, and need to be left alone,too..But MARRIAGE is different than going it the single route, and a COUPLE is different than a single.I’m lucky to come from a family of feisty women who never let the doormat thing happen.. I think we need just a little MORE interdependency and partnership in marriage these days, don’t you think? I try to use my caregiver tendencies in the HEALTH CARE field..Also, as a CaNCERIAN SUN MARS URANUS,I LOVE being needed in the HOME.. and it fulfills me, so I never feel put upon when doing a bit more in that ara.I enjoy traditional roles too.. he does the oil change I cook.He does the yard clean up I do the laundry.But I also take off for mountain retreat son my own a couple of times a year and somehow he manages without me.. and vice versa.. It’s all a matter of the AGREEMENTS you set up! AND they can change over time, just keep talking!
This reminded me that I had a relationship with a guy with a lot of Neptune aspects between us. I think we were both deluded about each other and it didn’t work out very well. I used to think Neptune was to blame, but I see that it can work out too, with you and your husband.Since I was born with Neptune close to my Sun (and so did all of my generation), I’ve thought often that I was doomed to have other people’s Neptunes conjunct my Sun, making my deluded about them. I know I shouldn’t say deluded but “positively illusioned” or something like that – but I have Venus-Saturn so I don’t like illusions of any kind. But with Sun-Neptune, I haven’t much choice. I’m deluded.
I know I’m running away from the topic of dependency!
“This is the one that grabs me too. People with genuine difficulties reach me. The problem that I’ve had is drawing the line for myself and knowing before hand how much of my resources I am willing to share. Many times very needy sorts can drain a person with a complete lack of awareness of what they’re doing.” ***exactly***that is why there is no blame involved for me. it is not someone else’s fault that i give and give and give. i just need to be more discriminating in allocating the *resources* (i like how you phrase things). this is what i believe Sakoian & Acker mean by the goal of the Jupiter in Pisces person is to make others strong in love and wisdom…however, i believe it starts with myself.i will spend more time with this insight and formulate deal breakers before my meeting and hopefully stick to them (she says bolstering her leonine courage). thanks again
“We BOTH support one another’s efforts in all areas.. we DO get very involved in each other’s decision making! But–we allow for independence too–and even learn something form our differences! “&”It’s all a matter of the AGREEMENTS you set up! AND they can change over time, just keep talking!”Madeline i do believe i can apply the above two ways of living to the “single life” too. thanks for this post
I think we need just a little MORE interdependency and partnership in marriage these days, don’t you think? Yes, I do! Your wonderful comment adds a lot to this topic and being a Libra Sun/Moon person, finding ways to bring balance and equity into relationships is major focus for me. Helping others work on this goal is important too.The idea of renegotiating agreements as we grow and change is key, I think. Humans are in a constant state of change whether we acknowledge it or not – so our relationships need to reflect those changes.BTW, Madeline, congratulations on being together for over 30 years. . . in this day and age, that’s quite an accomplishment. It used to be societal expectations keep couples together often as not but now it’s more up to the individuals involved.
..just want to add that, i doubt i could get involved with another’s decision making unless asked.but i do like the idea/image of support and independence working side by side.
But with Sun-Neptune, I haven’t much choice. I’m deluded.
ROFL!!! But you are a very funny deluded person!! 
OK, I have this theory that’s been running around in the back of my head about the difference between natal aspects to Neptune (you may have noticed I skipped over a discussion about Neptune in synastry on my other blog . . .) and Neptune’s effect by transit. It seems to me a natal Neptune aspect can be worked with over time. We learn coping mechanisms as we become familiar with how our delusions/illusions work. For instance, with a natal Moon/Neptune conjunction, I learned to recognize the difference between my feelings and what I’d absorbed from someone else. Plus the whole manifested/unmanifested gig. Elsa P regularly blogs on her experiences with Neptune on her MC. We learn and accommodate. 
Going back to the Neptune in Sagittarius generation, I believe you all will eventually learn to work with this master of illusion/compassion and eventually save all our butts!!I know I’m running away from the topic of dependency!LOL!!! ha, ha, ha!!!
i will spend more time with this insight and formulate deal breakers before my meeting and hopefully stick to them (she says bolstering her leonine courage). Exactly the best way to go!! If I’m feeling really nervous, I make written lists of deal breakers – it seems to seal them in my mind better.
I had a feeling you would find it funny
I guess, in time, I will learn that I AM not what other people think or say I am, I am independent of that and that will feel so much better. I thought I’d inform you that I played the lottery but didn’t win a single thing. Jupiter is overrated!
I thought I’d inform you that I played the lottery but didn’t win a single thing. Jupiter is overrated!LOL! That’s the problem with Jupiter, he thinks he’s very important and wildly optimistic. I know I’m very curious to see what happens when Jupiter moves into Capricorn in mid-December and starts sobering up . . . lots of folks out there going to have big time hangovers!
Like the stock market today. I very carefully put more money into bonds this summer because I was expecting a downtick. Then reallocated last week for aggressive risk-taking but not intending for my current money to move out of where I put it. Had a nasty shock this morning. when I realized that I had moved money out of the bonds into stocks and then took a major hit on all the stocks while the dang bonds sat there and didn’t lose a penny. grrr. me thinks, jupiter and neptune just kicked me good. do what i mean, not as i say!oh yeah, this was supposed to be about relationships. ummm…i have no relationships so that’s not a problem for me. however, i seem to be in major “Carebear” mode…mama bear. mothering others a lot.
do what i mean, not as i say!Ouch! what little I haven’t already moved to CD’s, is in conservative funds. Haven’t checked them lately to see how this see-saw market is affecting them.however, i seem to be in major “Carebear” mode…mama bear. mothering others a lot.There are worse places to be! I’ve been very wary lately because one of my family members completely misconstrued an email I sent her. She thought I was being mean & sarcastic – something I don’t do . . . period! However, Pluto is currently exactly squaring her Moon/Jupiter conjunction and that’s enough to have anyone seeing enemies everywhere.
i’m lonely. i’m at work and Lee is sick and ZenMaster Jeff is off till next year and Arvind has moved on to sales and it’s just me back here with nothing to do. boo hoo.dear, dear. on a better note, i’m having trouble finding lye so i had to sign a haz material release form yesterday and hope to get it in the mail. i want to make more soap. At the Renaissance Festival Saturday I dragged my buddies from soap booth to incense booth to soap booth. hee.
on a better note, i’m having trouble finding lye so i had to sign a haz material release form yesterday and hope to get it in the mail. i want to make more soap. At the Renaissance Festival Saturday I dragged my buddies from soap booth to incense booth to soap booth. hee.The Powers that Be are fussy about shipping lye . . . it’s pretty nasty stuff.
Bet all those booths smelled wonderful! I love the fragrance combination you used for the green soap and am thinking about making some kind of potpourri or some such thing to be able to make my house smell good. It’s slowly dawning on me I have time to do a fun little project like that. Please remind me what you used . . . there was lime, bergamot & ??heh, I bought some Earl Grey tea yesterday because you got me thinking about bergamot . . . 
The blue soap is bergamot, lemon, lime and lavender.The green was sandalwood, patchouli, and sassafras. There was an interesting shop that specialized in Native American scents. The girl’s grandfather was Native American and she was trying to recreate some of his favorites. yummy cedarwood and sage. I have an unholy passion for the wood scents.
I’m thinking of combining cedarwood, orange and sage next. Maybe some of the other woods too. Maybe a bit of cinnamon or cardamom?
i wonder if tseka has any suggestions of combinations? what’s she up to? I haven’t seen her here much lately…
The green was sandalwood, patchouli, and sassafras. Sandalwood!!! That’s one of my absolute all time favorites!! Patchouli is very, very strong but in this mix it adds just the right note. Sassafras . . . hmmm, root beer?! At any rate, I love the combo!I’m thinking of combining cedarwood, orange and sage next. Maybe some of the other woods too. Maybe a bit of cinnamon or cardamom?Cardamon is another great one. I’ve been using it in bread lately for the subtle clean taste & fragrance. I like the idea of cardamon with the woody scents.i wonder if tseka has any suggestions of combinations? what’s she up to? I haven’t seen her here much lately…The Sun in Scorpio is the 12th House phase for Sagittarius and she is in semi-retreat mode now. Plus she did a couple of big events at the end of October around the same time So Cal was aflame. Very taxing.
Yeah, the green combo doesn’t smell like ANY of them, just the synergy of the combo. But I LOVE it. It’s so addictive. 3 parts patchouli, 3 parts sassafras and 2 parts sandalwood, I think. Most of my combos end up equalling 7-8 tspns.
Yeah, the green combo doesn’t smell like ANY of them, just the synergy of the combo. But I LOVE it. It’s so addictive. 3 parts patchouli, 3 parts sassafras and 2 parts sandalwood, I think. Most of my combos end up equalling 7-8 tspns.Thanks, sweetie!!! I will have to order these online because the local sources are god awful expensive & very limited in selection. Might get some of those rings you put on light bulbs and put this on them. Know what you mean about addictive . . . that combo hits my hind-brain somehow and I keep wanting more!!
Like having ratios to work with. That’s what I use for mixing dyes to get a certain color. It’s a whole lot easier to make quantity adjustments from a ratio.
Do you guys have a Whole Foods nearby? I’ve found they have very good selections of essential oils and they’re the only place I’ve found sassasfras. Can’t find it on the net.I’m ordering from Brambleberry.com and mountainroseherbs.com
hmmmm, love sandalwood, but cedarwood gets burned daily here. although, every once in awhile, i break out the good stuff from Tibet.just posted at Pat’s and sent her virtual incense! re: the topic, me and da kitty are quite the co-dependent pair. @;-)
so toasty and warm here…. in the transition from bright october to the grey of november. need to send out resumes by the end of the week, so am really enjoying these brief, lazy hours spent staring at the birch trees outside the window. warm wishes to all. @;-) i do read, although don’t post, every day.
Do you guys have a Whole Foods nearby? I’ve found they have very good selections of essential oils and they’re the only place I’ve found sassasfras. Can’t find it on the net.No Whole Foods but I did find some sassafras oil for sale on Ebay. It’s the essential oils for use in soaps and candles that’s best, isn’t it?
so toasty and warm here…. in the transition from bright october to the grey of november. need to send out resumes by the end of the week, so am really enjoying these brief, lazy hours spent staring at the birch trees outside the window. Treasure those moments! It was cold & grey here today, only in the 40′s. We can get snow any time now…. brrrrrr
Keep in mind Mars Rx will slow everything down for the next 2 1/2 months. I thinking of it as “pacing” myself . . . =grin=
Pace myself right into a nap… @;-)Wintertime is good. So happy to hear you now have time to pursue your many and varied talents, Neith. Me? I’m just happy to be in a new town, I mean, actual city!, for a change. I’m even looking forward to finding a job, making connections and putting down roots. Have Pat’s predictions in hand and doing my best to go with the flow of the planets, whether I understand them, or not. Peace, Love & Human Rights, Baby! LOL
Peace, Love & Human Rights, Baby! LOLAbsolutely!! Aries does like to be where the Action is!
It is 80 degrees today but a cold front is supposed to be coming. Another dry one. Dang, after last summer, it’s been really really dry here.Yes, essential oils for soapmaking. I got the proportions wrong (silly memory):5 parts sandalwood, 3 parts patchouli, 2 parts sassafras.If you’re making a bowl of potpourri, you should make that drops and not tspns. Ditto for salt scrub…very easy stuff to make. Equal parts sea salt and epsom salts plus essential oils.
5 parts sandalwood, 3 parts patchouli, 2 parts sassafras.Knowing how potent patchouli is that sounds about right! Sandalwood tends to be lighter and I’m not familiar with sassafras. Fiddling around with fragrances is so fun!! But after awhile the nose shuts down.
oooh salt scrubs sound nice too! I have some good quality sea salt around too and we always have epsom salts on hand. dum de dum de dum . . . off to find those oils!! 
salt scrubs are wonderful!
Hej Casey, ja Neith is right i am lost to days here working on a new technique in my painting, cramming in as much as possible during these shorter days. And lost is the right word – not knowing which day it is, nor caring. A stillpoint i find very pleasant.Evenings i have been knitting and reading, doing some writing, not too much on the internet at the moment. Love the discussion of soaps and scrubs and making things of beautiful utility. Just what the cosmic winds seem to be asking of us.warm thoughts to allGreat work btw Neith your writing is finding a nice rhythm!
Hi tseka!! Good hearing that you are deep in the throes of the creative process! heh, speaking of knitting, yesterday evening I looked at the scarf I’m knitting from the yarn I just spun, decided I didn’t like the way it was looking and unraveled it and started again – on larger needles. Looks much better! Mars Rx is now officially in effect . . .
Love the discussion of soaps and scrubs and making things of beautiful utility. Just what the cosmic winds seem to be asking of us.I think it’s the Taurus energy (her ASC, my 6th/7th House) plus my Venusian side, egging us on. We both are very, very happy discussing how to make our homes and lives more pleasant places via color, texture and fragrance. When everything else is going to hell in a hand-basket, I can still find time to contemplate beauty. Add in the creative process element and I’m even happier. Great work btw Neith your writing is finding a nice rhythm!There is no substitute for practicing one’s art/craft with awareness and attention to improve it! As you know so well . . . 